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IETF-99 mboned minutes

Session 2017-07-18 0930-1200: Athens/Barcelona - Audio stream - mboned chatroom

Minutes

minutes-99-mboned-00 minutes



          IETF 99 Prague
          MBONED Agenda
          Tues, Jul 18, 2017
          9:30AM-12PM
          Athens/Barcelona (Held jointly with PIM WG)
          
          Note takers: Mike McBride
          
          Jabber Log: https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/mboned/2017-07-18.html
          Audio log:
          https://ietf.org/audio/ietf99/ietf99-athens_barcelona-20170718-0930.mp3
          Video log: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYCJD_F9b1g
          
          Status of WG items Chairs, 5 min
          draft-acg-mboned-multicast-models-00
          Chown, 15 min
          draft-ietf-mboned-mtrace-v2-17 Asaeda, 5 min
          AMT
          Hackathon Update Holland, 15 min
          wg overview:
          mtrace draft went
          wglc last year. one comment from stig so far. need more comments
          Tim is shepherd for interdomain-peering draft. several nits, all
          textual. authors to fix nits, rev and will be submitted to iesg.
          acg-mboned-multicast-models-00 Tim Chown
          Discussed in Berlin. Original
          purpose to document mcast service models at high level.
          Discuss their
          use cases; document deployment examples
          Recommend use of ssm
          got some
          feedback at ietf96, some interest in the draft
          strip back on the text of
          service models
          need to have a draft which promotes use of SSM
          refocus
          draft on positive use cases of SSM
          give an appropriate new title
          What
          about ASM?
          interesting proposal by david farmer on internet 2 mcast lits:
          https://lists.internet2.edu/sympa/arc/wg-multicast/2017-06/msg00001.html
          where they deprecate use of ASM on internet2 and eliminating MSDP.
          Do
          we want to take IETF action here?
          Is it just about making backbone
          simpler to operate?
          We can make our draft a BCP for SSM use
          What about
          ipv6? embedded rp isn't too hard to support but should we make rfc2956
          historic as well, leaving just ssm for ipv4 and ipv6
          What about bidir
          PIM?
          What about IGMP/MLD?
          -rfc6434bis makes MLDv2 support a MUST
          -should
          also make a statement about igmpv3
          How to understand which apps use ASM
          vs SSM?
          What do we actually want to do?
          Stig: we should encourage ssm
          but not deprecate ASM. There are cases intradomain use cases for ASM for
          source discovery. especially link local and site local multicast. finding
          dhcp server. customer apps from various vendors. light bulbs. There
          are cases where its hard to use SSM and we should capture those in
          the drafts. people using embedded rp for multiple domains within one
          organization. likes idea of discussing different models but say this
          is for this specific purpose. Should not use ASM. SSM is more secure,
          easier to manage, etc.
          Jake: RFC 4609 informational security makes a
          recommendation about not using ASM. may want to reference it.
          Tim:
          pull statements from various RFCs and reference into this doc.
          Mikael
          abrams: doing interdomain asm is brittle. he wants to help people in their
          organizations to make the case about moving to SSM. Give them guidance
          to choose a different solution.
          Lenny: we as a wg can provide direction
          to app developers. we should have made a stronger point about SSM years
          ago. Many SSM unaware applications. Give clear direction. You shouldn't
          do this. make a stronger statement.
          Stig: Good doc. we need something
          like. app vendors the network and host stacks support igmpv2 today. hard
          to go to app vendors to say you need to change your application.
          Nihlen:
          more for deprecate. shutting down. would make his life easier. interdomain
          deprecation.
          Tim: what does that mean, and how to express in document.
          Greg: we don't have a police to enforce. we make a decision and hope
          people use it. Been harping on no ASM in interdomain since 2003. if
          there are apps that require it lets hear about it. really only walled
          garden apps need ASM.
          Sandy: MSDP is widely used in China. SSM as
          important but do not killed embedded rp. recommended is better.
          Stig: thinking about it more, might support deprecating MSDP.
          Mike:
          emerging technologies like artificial reality/virtual reality (AR/VR)
          are considering the use of ip mcast. It could explode with IoT. Now is
          the time for ietf to draw a line in the sand with ASM/SSM recommendation.
          Nils: DT has big deployments of ASM. since moving to SSM the operations
          dept has a much more stable network. we support deprecation. used ASM
          because applications. its igmpv3 that new set top box supports, no need
          for ASM anymore.
          Tim: SSM mapping could be used
          Mikael: this doc
          gives you another hammer for set top box vendors
          Toerless: we failed
          on this. when vendors say their STB supports v3 you still have to use
          it.
          Stig: should mention ssm mapping. you want to send *,g but need
          source discovery mechanism.
          Mikael: one vendor had a config file where
          you config the 'S'. you could not have ssm with two different sources,
          could only have one. they did ssm mapping in the set top box.
          Toerless:
          instead of having a draft about ssm mapping the draft should be where
          do source addresses come from.
          Lenny: by show of hands who would
          be in favor of the draft saying having strong recommendations using
          ssm vs asm interdomain? split 8 for strong recommendation and 7 for
          deprecation. roughly 50/50.
          Hitoshi: mtrace-v2-17 draft
          changes
          from 15 to 16:
          revised the introduction to clarify the criteria
          for directing the mtrace v2 query to either a last hop router or a
          RP.
          scanned for and corrected deviations from conventions, description
          of field ranges, etc
          broadened the description of circumstances in
          which a reply may be sent before the mtrace reaches the FHR.
          expanded
          on the criteria described in section 3 for validating TLvs within the
          message and for handling invalid TLVs.
          corrected the minimum length
          requirement in section 3.
          In the forwarding code item in section 3,
          added an explicit definition of the reserved error code range.
          section
          4.5 corrected the description for the number of hops field adjustment
          made when proxying an mtrace v2 query.
          added more specific details
          and wording corrections to the descriptions of the mtrace2 forwarding
          codes registry and TLV types registry in section 8.1 and 8.2.
          Formula
          for converting from a UNIX timeval to a 32 bit NTP timestamp for Query
          arrival time (because POSIX.1-2008 recommends clock_gettime()
          Lenny:
          this draft was submitted to IESG several years ago. Kicked back. 2nd
          WGLC. First one was last year. Need comments from WG. Mention whether
          you do or do not support advancement.
          Stig: Really important. taking
          too long. There are implementations of this.
          Lenny: would anyone be
          interested in document shepherding this? crickets.
          Jake Multicast
          over SPRING @hackathon report
          Worked on AMT implementation. Extended
          it with v6 support.
          AMT+mcproxy Implementation Update
          Plusses:
          -IPv6
          support added (gateway and relay)
          -etc
          Hackathon requirement:
          -Native
          multicast over CMTS without PIM upstream. Insert reasons from John
          here.
          Solution:
          dump data packets from relay raw with a shim (instead
          of forwarding AMT-encapsulated).
          -IP lookup for configured SRH shim
          -send once per SRH (shared across gateways).
          -do multiple gateways
          with source filtering
          Greg: where does the association come from?
          Greg:
          static or DNS
          Jake: It was hard wired in this demo. publishing a recipe
          on how to connect to their traffic. If we could do AMT over DNS that
          would make it easy.
          Toerless: Is there an AMT IGMP join sent from AMT
          gateway in the home router?
          Jake: Yes. the home router running mcp proxy
          with amt gateway. Homer router configured to understand which gateway to
          talk to.
          Toerless: must be a trick on how relay to know how igmp joins
          on the same downstream would only need to be sent as one copy.
          Jake:
          that was the effort.
          Toerless: how to identify which home routers
          Jake: look up table. have remote ip address from gateway
          Toerless:
          not sure if its operationally feasible to create a table. like option
          82. then can get rid of table. seems like lightweight work is possible
          for cable modem. minimize admin work on gateway.
          Jake: If John had
          wanted a different lookup it would have been fine. we do it once for
          destination.
          Jake: this is a network specific implementation
          Toerless:
          encourage people to look for a better non hacky answer. you can still
          bring bier in. terminate bier one hop before cmts. what about rest of
          distribution network.
          Jake:
          AMT project: useful next steps
          conformance
          test suite (packetdrill, fuzzing)
          Gateway source-filtering (+permite
          multiple gw instances)
          pimd support
          automated CI
          high performance
          forwarding path
          package for distros
          deployable containers
          progress as
          time permits
          volunteers very welcome
          wifi multicast discussion
          Mike: we
          have a draft in mboned on wifi multicast that needs updating. We created
          it because so many questions about why multicast is bad over 802.11. No
          reliability, high PER, no acks, people just convert mcast to unicast at
          the AP and be done with it. Alvaro attended a meeting on this on Saturday
          and perhaps he can give us an update. Either way, mboned should provide
          this use case to the community on our take on the problem.
          Alvaro:
          instead of waiting for ieee in 6lopan they changed neighbor discover
          for v6 to change some of the broadcast. perhaps they help not just
          for iot. there are some specific things we know don't work. about 20%
          of the time it doesn't work over wireless. we need to coordinate better
          between 802 and ietf. we are at an impass. we have a problem statement in
          mboned. we have a considerations doc in internet area. we should now work
          on solutions. understand how radio works and things we need to do. he will
          encourage people here at ietf this week to meet to discuss on the side
          (which he did).
          Carlos: we presented last ietf. intarea experimental
          work on 11ae. willing to work on testbed.
          Alvaro: send to him. maybe
          he can set something up
          Jake: were there a list of solutions?
          Alvaro:
          no. couple of drafts that looking at. good to get more feedback.
          Carlos:
          we need to look at the interarea document.
          Mike: will update the document
          and attend the side meeting.
          
          



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