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Rtg Area: Alvaro Retana, Deborah Brungard, Martin Vigoureux | 2018-Feb-23 —  

IETF-109 lsr minutes

Session 2020-11-16 1200-1400: Room 4 - lsr chatroom


minutes-109-lsr-01 minutes

          LSR IETF 109
          Chairs: Acee Lindem
                  Chris Hopps
          Secretary: Yingzhen Qu
          Date: Monday, 16 November 2020 
          Time: 12:00 – 14:00 ICT
          WG Page:     http://tools.ietf.org/wg/lsr/ 
          Materials:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/session/lsr 
          Note taking: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-109-lsr
          Jabber:      http://jabber.ietf.org/logs/lsr 
          iCalendar:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/sessions/lsr.ics 
          * Administrivia and WG update
            12:00 - 15m
          * Effect of Parameter Regulation on ISIS flooding
            Experimental results
            12:15 15m
            Gang Yan
          Les Ginsberg: Did you do any adjustment to the PSNP response time? There
                     was a presentation last time from Sarah and Tony that
                     indicated that it made a big difference.
          Gang:      We set it to 800ms instead of standard 5s, a small enough
                     value, and we attempted to send an ack ASAP.
          Les:       Second quick question is, the receive window that you've
                     talked about, what you're actually doing is just monitoring
                     the local retransmission queue for each interface, correct?
          Gang:      Yes. We discussed internally, the unacknowledged queue size
                     is one condition from which we can get some feedback from
                     the receiver side. Sometimes we don't have enough information
                     to control it. For some interfaces, we can only check the
                     queue size. Seometimes we need feedback from the receiver
          Les:       Just wanted to clarify what you did in your tests,
                     thank you.
          Bruno Decraene: Similar to Les, When you do the test with a static
                     window, it could be useful to to acknowledge PSNP faster, as
                     illustrated by Sarah and Tony.
          Gyan Mishra: Was the test done with simulation or hardware?
          Gang:      We will try to run more tests, with more links and complex
                     scenarios. We tested in Huawei hardware.
          Xuesong Geng (from chat):
          Some supplemental info for the question from Les about Receive
          window: the length of the queue is local information, but the
          receive window is the threshold of the queue, which could be
          configured by local information or the information from the
          * Using Flex-Algo for SR based VTN
            12:30 - 10m
            Jie Dong
          Acee:      Speaking as chair, can you start more discussion on this
                     draft to have people read it and socialize it? I read it,
                     but the need of the V flag is not clear to me.
          Jie:       We will start to have more discussion on the mailing list,
                     and then have the adoption started on the list?
          Peter:     I commented earlier. The way the total constaints are being
                     used. Basically a bundle must advertise the summary of all
                     the included affinities of the individual members, can't
                     use an exclude or combined exclude with include because
                     that would break. So, if this is what the author had planned
                     to do then the restriction should be clearly described
                     in the draft.
          Jie:       We had a discussion on the list, we'll add it to the next
                     version of the draft.
          Acee:      Let's take the discussion to the list.
          * Using IS-IS MT for SR based Virtual Transport Network
            12:40 - 10m
            Chongfeng Xie
          Acee:      This one is more straight forward. We can put it in the
                     queue for WG adoption, the key issue is whether we need it.
                     I think it's good to have an informational draft.
          Chris:     Let's do a raise hands. Pretty good support, so we can
                     start the adoption call soon on the list.
          * OSPF Transport Instance
          12:50 - 10m
          Acee Lindem
          Aijun:     How about using top TLV in router LSA so we don't have to
                     use separate instance?
          Acee:      It depends on what information you want to put in the
                     router LSA.
          Aijun:     You mentioned some information to the server and it's
                     similar to Linda's draft. I think try to put the information
                     in independent TLV might be simpler.
          Chris:     I think that this should be discussed on the list for sure,
                     especially in the context of some of the presentations today.
                     It's coming up later and I think you're referring to it.
          Les:       I didn't realize until just now that you had revived this.
                     RFC 6823 introduced an application identifier, with a
                     registry, to control the assignment for the applications.
                     Do you think that concept has any relevance here?
          Acee:      Yeah, we will look at that.
          Les:       Maybe we could, we'd have to change things a bit but maybe
                     we could share the registry between the two IGPs.
          Zhenbin Li: I have a Similar concern as Aijun. From my point of view,
                     you produce that instance, and this will add complexity for
                     the network evolution, because this may introduce more
                     configuration. We know the BGP they always do the same
                     session to support the different services. So from my
                     point of view, maybe we can also create a similar mechanism
                     for better network evolution, and also reduce the possible
                     cost of the IGP.
          Gyan:      This feature, it can work right I guess. Would it work,
                     let's say in conjunction with the layering concept where
                     you can divide multiple instances? Let's say if you had
                     5000, maybe you could leverage flex-algo in
                     conjunction, I guess.
          Acee:      This is about distribution information using OSPF.
                     The transport instance is for information that isn't for
          Chris:     Direct analogy to RFC 6823.
          * IGP FlexAlgo in IP Networks
            13:00 - 20m
            Parag Kaneriya
          Acee:      Why did you define a new top level TLV for OSPF extended
                     prefix LSA? why not use the existing one? I'm not saying it's
                     wrong, I'm just wondering the reasoning.
          Parag:     Is that specific to algo 0?
          Peter:     The existing one will would advertise algo 0 reachability.
          Gyan:      How will this inter-op with say SRv6? Is there any benefit?
          Parag:     It's independent of SR MPLS and SRv6. Maybe the operator
                     doesn't want to run SR or they don't have this hardware
                     capability, they can use this software-based programming
                     into hardware and can achieve the same level of the data
                     plane separation for network slicing.
          Ron Bonica: I add to that. So long as the addresses that you bind to
                     flex algo are different from the locators that you will bind
                     to flex algo, you should be able to run them both at once.
                     But the question is, why would you ever run them both at once?
          Gyan:      Just for corner cases.
          Chris:     I thought this is an alternate.
          Ron:       That's why I'm asking why would you ever run them both at once.
          Peter Psenak: Nothing is preventing you from running both.
          Bruno      What you're trying to do is already available in SRv6
                     flex algo. Why is there different TLV for SRv6 and IPv6 flex
          Parag:     SRv6 has more sub-tlvs which are not applicable here. So we
                     can't use the same TLV for IPv6.
          Peter:     Yeah, in theory, one could do that and use the locator TLV
                     without the SIDs. That is not prohibited at the moment so one
                     can do it. I don't think, from an encoding perspective, that
                     would really be something that I would prefer. But
                     theoretically, you can advertise the locator without any SID
                     and treat this as an IPv6 prefix. Whether we want to do it or
                     not is another matter. I would rather not to, I would prefer
                     to have a clean encoding and not mix things.
          Shraddha:  Locators are not 128 bits, here it is.
          Peter:     In theory, it has prefix and mask, it can be. In theory, one
                     can do tha it.
          Bruno:     In theory, some implementation would not support?
          Peter:     Basically what you're asking is why we are not using the
                     locator TLV. One can do it but I don't think we want to do
          Tony Li:   I just noticed you published 01 version. Can you summarize
                     the changes?
          Parag:     We added MT-ID of 12 bits to reduce the number of
                     top-level TLVs. Plus editorial changes.
          Jie:       it's a new application to use IP flex-algo. Can different
                     application use the same flex-algo ID? If so, can the
                     computation results be shared?
          Parag:     No. It's not good to use the same flex-algo, there is a
                     forwarding conflict.
          Peter:     You need to run a separate calculation for each application,
                     nothing stops you from using the same flex-algo ID.
          Jie:       The computation for different applications will be different.
          Peter:     There is a section in the draft describes that.
          Ketan:     I support to use new TLV for IPv6, not the same as SRv6.
                     It's better to keep them separate.
          Acee:      This generated lots of interest. I think we can do adoption
                     based on interest.
          Chris H:   Not enough time to show hands. Let's take it to the list.
          Acee:      I looked again and agree that separate TLV is good for OSPF.
          IGP Extensions for Advertising Hop-by-Hop Options Header Processing Action
          13:20 - 10m
          Yali Wang
          Chris:     This reminds me of the IFIT draft I had issues with. I noticed
                     the latest IFIT draft now using the information for path
                     computation. One of the complaints before was this was the
                     sort of capability that had to do with OAM, and not routing.
                     So it wasn't appropriate to put it into the routing protocol.
                     Are you going to use this to determine routes?
          Yali:      We want to mention the motivation is advertise the HBH
                     processing capability which is not the same as IFIT. The node
                     capability of supporting HBH header may impact path
                     calculation so we need to know it. If we have service
                     requiring these HBH capabilities, we need to know which
                     node or links can support them.
          Chris:     As an operator, and I wand to do OAM, do I want to upgrade
                     my line card? I'm not sure I believe the use case. I don't
                     want my network traffic being determined by whether I've go an
                     updated line card. It feels funky.
          Acee:      These are in-band OAM techniques?
          Yali:      Yes.
          Acee:      And you're going to only compute paths that support In-band OAM
                     so this is similar in function to the previous draft.
          Yali:      There are more use cases using HBH header.
          Ron Bonica:If the only application is path computation, can't you just
                     change link color?
          Chris:     Yes. That's what I thought. I could just mark my interfaces
                     that support this and then I'm done.
          Jie Dong:  To my understanding, it's to advertise some generic HBH
                     processing capability. There are other use cases, some
                     traffic needs this. We have another draft in 6man related
                     to this which may need this. So this can be a generic
                     mechanism. Some application would select route with this
          Chris:     Note that my previous comments on Yali's presentation were
                     as WG member.
          * Passive Interface Attribute 
            13:30 - 10m
            Aijun Wang
          Chris:     I'm curious about some of the use cases. it
                     seemed like on the mailing list that there was one use case
                     where  it was inter-AS, there was some discussion that
                     was already
                     covered by TLV. And then there's a reference to Linda
                     Dunbar's draft which I went and read, which was about
                     using passive interfaces to describe load-balancing on
                     servers with anycast addresses. And in that case, why
                     wouldn't you just advertise the anycast as a prefix and
                     attach the attributes to that prefix. Why would you call a
                     server a link? It seems weird to be using a link in these
                     cases when you know if it's inter-AS there's already
                     something for that and if it's servers, then why not use
                     the prefix. Thanks.
          Aijun:     The proposal by Linda is connected to stub link, so I think
                     it's suitable putting them in passive interface attribute.
          Chris:     My point is I think that draft is wrong. It is describing a
                     server and an anycast address, and then trying to attach the
                     information for it to a link. Why not just do a prefix for
                     the server? We can discuss it on the list.
          Acee:      With generic way of advertising a stub link, you're using
                     the fact that it's passive to make inferences for these use
                     cases. Why wouldn't you just advertise this as an inter-AS
                     boundary or something like that, or whatever your use cases.
                     and we can discuss this on the list. I'll review the update.
          * Prefix Unreachable Announcement
            13:40 - 10m
            Gyan Mishra/ Aijun Wang
          Chris:     Speaking as working member. When I was thinking about
                     this, a lot of people seem to have complaints about the
                     mechanism for withdrawing the unreachable, and using timers.
                     Compared to RIFT, how RIFT had a more deterministic way to
                     deal with it. It really made me think if there was a way to
                     attach the unreachable to the summary route, then you would
                     just re-advertise the summary route with or without the
                     unreachable, the holes basically. And that way, if you
                     don't have that problem. I don't know if you're able to do
                     it like that in OSPF.
          Gyan:      Right. So with this, the prefix unreachable
                     advertisement would only be present when a component
                     is down. So when that component comes up the unreachable
                     stops immediately, so it wouldn't stay. It would help the
                     propagation. But when the summary is advertised, it would
                     be the summary plus this component attached to the summary
                     route. So when the receivers I guess on the other side, say
                     on the left side, let's see when they receive the summary
                     they'll see the routes, the components that are down and
                     it'll automatically program it in. To program into a FIB to
                     drive traffic and not send any traffic to that summary route.
          Chris:     If you have a sub-tlv, then you can withdraw it by just
                     changing the summary though.
          Acee:      Speaking as WG member. I was gonna say there's a lot
                     of complexity here for the different use cases and it looks
                     like you even added some additional use cases in your slides
                     and the interaction with the RIB is going to be quite
                     complicated. You should describe what you'd expect to be
                     installed in these cases, and how it's going to work. I
                     think that needs to be specified.
          Gyan:      It was the convergence and let's say you know if you have a
                     false positive or false negative. I think with timers,
                     because you're impacting the data plane, it's supposed to
                     make the convergence better, not worse. So we want to make
                     sure that whatever timers, when services come back, that it
                     would be flood that is part of the summary. So
                     when the service comes back up, it's immediately flooded and
                     removed. So you converge immediately as soon as any
                     part of the same summary advertisement same sub TLV. So when
                     the service is back, it comes back. When it goes down, the
                     data plane converges immediately, really improving the data
                     plane convergence. On the mailing list use-case with the BGP,
                     which could be like in this drawing we actually have multiple
                     areas, but if you had a single area, and that issue with
                     the next hop, when you're tied to, because you're doing that
                     next time rewrite, because that hierarchical. It's dependent
                     that the loopback doesn't go down, that's something that
                     existed for a long time. So this thing would make the next
                     hop converge immediately and I think that would be a huge
                     gain for any service provider or operator. That's probably
                     the biggest one. The timers and converging the data plan and
                     making sure that when services come up, we just have to
                     make sure that the entry that's tied to the prefix is
                     actually gone. With this new TLV, it would age out quickly
                     like immediate it would be immediately flooded in as soon
                     as the service comes up. Boom, that blackhole route is
                     gone. The unreachable is gone. As soon as the component is
                     down, the next hop goes away, then immediately the data
                     plane converges. It would really have to be immediate. It
                     can't be lingering. That's really the critical, because we
                     don't want to make things worse. We want to make it better
                     and improve convergence.
          Chris:     I think this probably needs a lot more discussion.
          Acee:      It feels like the different use cases have different
                     RIB behaviors. Mixing them is confusing as well.
          Gyan:      It is. There's some stuff I think we have to really clarify.
                     But I agree there is a mix of use cases. We have to work on
                     cleaning that up.
          Tony Li:   I have a concern about scalability. It seems to me like if
                     you had a significant failure, you can use this to inject a
                     whole lot of stuff into an IGP relatively suddenly. That
                     seems like an unintentional stress test.
          Gyan:      Yes, that's a good point. But I think that is something
                     that we will control. There is a timer that we would have.
                     We have a variable based on the idea that it would be
                     a user configurable, based on the number of component
                     prefixes that are down versus the number of routes. So,
                     how many negative components you have, and how many services
                     are up and it would be something configurable. By default,
                     as long as you have one match, and then there's one
                     component that's up and  the summary always gets out in time.
                     So you could keep it the same or you could change it
                     depending on the use case. If you don't want it to change and
                     you want to always advertise a summary no matter whatE.
                     Let's say you have 1000 component prefixes, but as long as
                     one component is up you always advertise. And that's
                     something that you could change and you could say,
                     well make it like 50% if you have 50% of your components are
                     down, really, you shouldn't be sending out summary maybe at
                     that point. Hope that answers the question. Does anyone have
                     any other any other questions or comments and we can pick it
                     up I guess on the mailing list.
          Chris:     We should probably wrap up.
          Acee:      We will continue this discussion on the list.

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