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Locator/ID Separation Protocol (Active WG)
Rtg Area: Alvaro Retana, Alia Atlas, Deborah Brungard | 2009-Apr-28 —  

IETF-99 lisp minutes

Session 2017-07-17 1330-1530: Berlin/Brussels - Audio stream - lisp chatroom


minutes-99-lisp-00 minutes

          LISP WG Minutes
          Monday 17 July 2017 1:30pm Ð 3:30pm
          - Administration
          - Blue Sheets
          - Agenda Bashing
          - Status reports for WG drafts
          Update on Draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6830bis & Draft-ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis
          Ð Albert Cabellos
          Comment regarding the order of documents need to make advancement in
          these docs.
          Joel: Have a timer running on that one, because we have the code points
          therefore we need to get that one moving.
          Luigi: Invite everybody to review the code data points and put out all
          the comments so we can move these forward.
          Dino: Do you have recommendations on the ones which are currently about
          to be published to have pointers on these document . They currently
          point to 6830 and 6833?
          Joel: No. Let them move.
          Dino: Ok one of the problems IÕve had is that any new internet draft
          should point to these drafts?
          Joel: New work we do should be pointing to these drafts not to the
          LISP YANG Model - draft-ietf-lisp-yang-05
          Ð Fabio Maino
          No comment or questions
          LISP Predictive RLOCs - draft-ietf-lisp-predictive-rlocs-00
          Ð D. Farinacci/ P. Pillay-Esnault
          Question from Fred Templin on whether the packets get silently discarded
          Explanation on the pre-fetching of the source by using the packets that
          were dropped on the floor so making use of this information
          Victor: There is directionality in the examples.  How about if you
          are driving in a car east-west and now you go back home in opposite
          direction. Any thoughts how you can actually express that with your map
          request and get the right one?
          Dino: Yes you can two mappings, one for each direction or you can use
          the circular one or the back and forth and replicate to all of them.
          There is all kind of things you could do
          Padma: We can think of these RLOCS being added by a third party that
          has more information. It is not necessarily the EID end-point itself
          registering all this info.
          Dino: Absolutely. I didnÕt make it clear who is registering the RLOC. You
          may have assumed if you know lisp how LISP works that the endpoints or
          the XTRs are registering the RLOC but we very much thought that it would
          be a third party.
          Victor: That makes sense. It could be for consideration that this would
          be extremely useful in the 3d space rather than a linear space. Have
          you thought so?
          Dino: I could say that my intersection example was 3D in a 2D slide. You
          can have a plane that moves in 3 D and you would have more nested
          RLEs. People have asked f we can use this in airplane applications where
          you donÕt know exactly where you are going. If you know the geospace
          where the plane is you can just replicate to everything in that space.
          Padma: Regionality has something we can use. For example if you pass
          and get detected by radar then may be something like for the next 5 km
          you will not be changing intersection.
          Dino: Air traffic control could be the SDN controller.
          Victor: So that interface is going to be key
          Dino: Yes. Fred do you have any comments wrt to not knowing your direction
          Fred Templin: I do not see why it would not work for a plane in flight
          of course civil aviation type
          Luigi: There is always a flight path that the pilots head through and
          before the information is known before.
          Dino: It is when they deviate time to time ..
          Padma: Another example that we used was trains and they will not deviate
          from the tracksÉ
          Dino: Yes they are nailed to the ground.
          Luigi: Just a comment on Slide 14 where you say that Random is when the
          EID is É
          Dino: What we meant is that we replicate from a through D and we donÕt
          know the direction, in which the EID is going in,
          Padma: Another interesting case is that we say that even thought you
          have a long list and you can replicate to all. But in cell phone you
          are handing over from one cell tower to another, so at one point you
          could restrict that only to the interesting points. All this implies
          that we have more machinery to update. This is very doable as they have
          the information anyway.
          Dino: The way I was going to implement it is to not only send it to
          B. Discussion on how list pruning  É. That what is really  important..
          Victor:  IsnÕt this the case where PadmaÕs comment where the information
          on where it actually is and that is why you sent to B?
          Dino: If it is not going to move then you just use regular mechanisms.
          May be we should prune Random and unpredictable from the list.
          There is a requirement from somebody else and they are not here to defend
          Dino/Wolfgang Reidel: Discussion on use of geo-coordinate and how
          the third party may be used to update the list of rlocs. Use of GPS.
          The map request will take to much time.
          Dino/Wolfgang/Padma: When a physical move occurs and if we use the normal
          process we are saying it takes too much time. Here we are bypassing
          all this. It is an IP problem not a spacial. The closer we keep the
          replication to the destination.
          The missing piece is that the moving entity must directly tell the
          Dino/Padma: Discussion on late and pre-fetched binding possibility .Use
          of replication closer to the destination
          Wolfgang: how may encapsulation on top of this one. I do not care if it
          is a bit larger.
          Dino: So you are for making the header largerÉ you need to convince
          millions of people but agree it might be worth trying out.
          LISP EID Anonymity - draft-farinacci-lisp-eid-anonymity-02
          Ð D. Farinacci/ P. Pillay-Esnault
          Victor Ð What triggers the change of the EID to next?
          Dino: It is the policy in the source, whenever it wants to. May be the
          source will use an EID per TCP session.
          Albert Ð question regarding the encryption how this can be done with
          the anon-eid.
          The signaling should be done without of out of band from lisp
          Dino- we are working on a document to show  how to achieve this in lisp.
          Luigi Ð Concern that fast change of eid can fill up the cache
          Dino: There is nothing in the text but what we can do is
          rate-limiting. May be we should look at scale issues. We need to figure
          out where to document it.
          Fabio Ð Consideration on the inference on what the mapping system can
          do on anonymity. I guess you Consideration for the security section
          Request for wg doc Ð support in room. No objections
          Vendor Specific LCAF - draft-rodrigueznatal-lisp-vendor-lcaf-00
          - F. Maino
          Dino Ð OUI should be only from the IEEE list as there are some
          virtualization companies who assign OUI on their own
          Request for wg Adoption Ð Support in the room. No objections.
          A simple BGP-based Mobile Routing System for the Aeronautical
          Telecommunication Network Ð F. Templin
          Fred: The data plane is encapsulation of ipv6 over ipv6. We could use
          the LISP encapsulation. Arrow uses the Generic UDP encapsulation or GUE
          but arrow could use the LISP encapsulation.
          Padma: I know you said you do not want to drop any packets. How do you
          optimize your routes and forwarding, or you do not care about it? By not
          sending it on an optimize route you are not sure that you will receive
          these packets.
          Fred:  In stable state your bgp peering between these core ASBR are
          bring maintained by TCP keepalives. Rely on TCP to maintain the link
          up. We are worried about initial packet loss as this may be the last
          packet that plane ever sends. From what I understand about lisp is that
          the ITR holds on the packet until it gets a reply back and then sends
          the packet. First of all when it gets the map reply back, it canÕt know
          without testing it first that the path the ITR to the ETR is a working
          path. It cannot know that the forwarding path works.
          Dino. You said that the applications use TCP connections will be up ahead
          of time and therefore those packet drops happened on syn packets thatÕs
          going to happen way before the data is going to need to go over it.
          Fred: The TCP connections do not go to airplane. The TCP is only between
          the BGP core routers.
          Dino: Are they set up ahead of time?
          Fred: Yes same as BGP Peering.
          Padma:  So you are relying on the BGP keepalive to ensure that the packet
          makes it. The moment you sent the packet down from the plane you have
          no guarantee that there is anything up.
          Fred: The stability of BGP is going to be based on the fact that the ASBR
          are not moving. When an EID prefix come to the xtr the first time and
          it needs to inject that EID prefix in the BGP routing system and then
          get propagated to the core ASBR but they do not go further. So very few
          nodes need to be updated.
          Padma: Yes this reminds me of OSPF. But you are have no control whether
          these connections can go down. Well there is no guarantee.
          Fred: you are right; this is the same thing that happens in a BGP
          Fred/..: Discussion on neighbor discovery in arrow relying ipv6 neighbor
          discovery. Albert : Regarding the first packet loss,  before we populate
          the map-cache is that we send it to the proxy ITR that is equivalent to
          the router in slide.
          Fred:.. router has full knowledge of the IDS topology.
          ICAO 9896 doc describes the ATN. has a sub group mobility and we meet
          on 3 times per year. They want to work on a solution for this year. FAA,
          European and other aviation orgÉ
          Fred: Lisp does not run on the airplanes but only on the ground.
          Wolfgang/Fred: Some discussion on a simple solution on the airplanes
          Victor: Are you  adding mobility semantics to BGP?
          Fred: It is like layer 2 mobility and it does not get propagated
          into BGP. But it go from one stub AS to another Stub AS then it gets
          propagation into BGP.  Macromobility and micromobility if you will.
          Victor: Are you proposing to use community attributes for the macro
          Joel: So nothing special for mobility
          Fred: discussion on slides for plane having 2 bgp routes.
          With the ground base lisp will have to update the MS.
          Discussion on BGP scale on million to ten thousands of planes
          Padma: the question is really about the converging time of bgp.
          Fred: The number of routers on the core of is limited to the order of
          Joel: They have a very constrained environment and they are designing
          it for a very specific purpose.
          Victor: Do you see the pink cloud as 10 routers over the world?
          Fred: Good question. The pink cloud is what we call the inter network. It
          is subdivided into regions. Whether it would be partitioned or not is
          all up in the air.
          Concerns regarding regional partition depending on countries USA, Europe
          or China.
          Victor: a very interesting use case
          Luigi: How to make the different mapping system talk to each other? They
          have the possibility to handle specific EID requests.
          Wolfgang: Discussion on live-live feeds.

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